Мелкие молоссы показывали себя лучше в бою с быком, и когда это заметили тогда начался целенаправленный отбор.

Само название как бы намекает... )))

Почему я написал "или с собакой", потому что не так далеко от их предназначения, точнее это является отчасти их предназначением. И это хотя бы намного ближе к травле зверя, чем работа по человеку. Например ирландские стаффи наоборот не утратили бойцовые качества только благодаря отбору в работе по барсуку. Вон Алекс отбирает собак, которые дерутся, и у него неплохие бульдоги.

Этих стаффи уже нет, это были собаки ирландских линий, и отбирались они в работе по вольерному барсуку, потом вроде бы снова стали драться в ринге. Вообще об этом лучше может рассказать Витя. Но уже похерили и этих собак, нет рабочего разведения, хотя вроде их потомки еще есть в Ирландии.

Фотку видел с вольным + они имели сертификаты определенных испытаний. Видел видео очень старое этих испытаний (с другими крупными терьерами) и там была деревянная нора простой формы довольно приличного диаметра (точнее периметра)

Отредактировано Victor (08 December 2014 20:50:04)

Хотя позже это могли быть уже естественные норы. Надо переводить (есть правила) и искать то видео.

Victor :

jh76 :

Victor :

Фотку видел с вольным + они имели сертификаты определенных испытаний. Видел видео очень старое этих испытаний (с другими крупными терьерами) и там была деревянная нора простой формы довольно приличного диаметра (точнее периметра)

да я к тому,что перспектива перекапывания земли,меня ну воообще не прельщает..)))))))

Охота на барсука это земляные работы. Сначала откопай, потом восстанови нору.

у тебя не полные сведения Вить,на него и так охотятся,как с кэтчерами,поджидают у нор и собак пускают,а потом либо режут,либо живьём....я нашёл городище у себя,собирался,но не успел,снегом замело и -13 было

jh76 :

Victor :

jh76 :

да я к тому,что перспектива перекапывания земли,меня ну воообще не прельщает..)))))))

Охота на барсука это земляные работы. Сначала откопай, потом восстанови нору.

у тебя не полные сведения Вить,на него и так охотятся,как с кэтчерами,поджидают у нор и собак пускают,а потом либо режут,либо живьём....я нашёл городище у себя,собирался,но не успел,снегом замело и -13 было

Я бы хотел таким образом поохотиться с кетчером, вначале найти нору, перкрыть вход, и поджидать барсука. По идее нужно идти либо рано утром, когда барсук приходит с охоты, либо ночью, когда он выходит.

Продолжаю по ссылке http://forum.zoologist.ru/viewtopic.php … 34#p402734

The separation of OWE and WEB is the same as the separation of the Mastiff and the Bulldog. The White English breed is often called by various terms such as Old White English, English Whites, Old English White, White English Bulldog and most commonly by rural southerners, just plain bulldogs. "White English" is the breed name, however there are two types within the breed; a mastiff type and a bulldog type. The mastiff type is known as the OWE and the bulldog type is known as the WEB. The mastiff type was known at one time as the White Farmer's Mastiff.

Unfortunately not many people are aware of these differences or even that there are two types, mistakenly calling any and all White English as WEB. What confuses so many people is their understanding, or lack thereof, of the terms bulldog and mastiff.

Despite the English Mastiff breed and English Bulldog breed being separated as their own distinct breeds in 1609, over 400 years ago, people still do not understand the difference, assuming that 'mastiff' means a 200+ lb. slobbering dog; and that 'bulldog' means any upturned nose, undershot, stubborn dog. These vast umbrellas of generalizations has destroyed people's concept of the actual mastiff and the actual bulldog. Historically and by definition, the mastiff has always been a guard dog of stock and family and a fighting dog of predator. The mastiff proper was never a hunting dog. Historically and by definition, the bulldog has always been a sporting dog. "The bulldog became defined by the sport it was used for..." Wynn. Today, these lines are blurred, leaving most little chance at understanding what either really is.
'Mastiff'  Вить,переведи пожалуйста,если не затруднит....так то перевёл гуглом,но хотелось бы нормальным языком прочесть.

Ириша :

Если вкратце, то говориться о том, что в породе Старый белый англ бульдог были два типа-"мастифф" и "бульдог". Тип "мастифф" был в то время известен как "Белый фермерский Мастифф".
И что у людей до сих пор сложился стереотип, как "мастифф"-это 200кг слюнявая собака, а "бульдог"-упрямая собака с вздёрнутым носом и перекусом. И типа это уничтожило фактическое понятие, что есть на самом деле мастифф и бульдог. Исторически и по определению, "мастифф" всегда был сторожевая собака на складе и семьи, и боевая собака от хищников. "Мастифф" никогда не был охотничьей собакой. Исторически и по определению, "бульдог" всегда был охотничьей спортивной собакой. Для этого и использовался.
И мол сегодня эти линии размыты, оставляя мало шансов на понимание, что есть на самом деле "мастифф". Как-то так...

спасибо,радость...))))

Picture
"Another line drawing from 1887 shows 'John Bull,' the English version of America's
'Uncle Sam,' with his companion - and the symbol of England as well - the Pit
Bulldog. This dog, too, shows long straight legs and a normal muzzle. This type
of working Bulldog had survived for centuries as a butcher's dog, guardian, and
baiting animal. This Bulldog survives today in the strains of the Pit Bull and
  Staffordshire dogs. Some of the larger strains of Pit Bull Terrier have
  recently been inbred to create a breed called the American Bulldog, which is
  reputed to be a direct descendant of the working Bulldog, but which is in fact
  larger and heavier in build than ever was the true working Bulldog."
Colby's Book of the APBT,  Louis Colby, 1997

Actually, Bulldogs and Mastiffs were and still are the same type "Working Dog," which came in great variation of sizes....
             
"Bullbaiting and bearbaiting in the Elizabethan era produced large dogs
for these sports and later on the 100- 120 pound animal gave way to a small,
more agile breed of up to 90 pounds."
AKC  (American Kennel Club)
The smaller Spanish War Dogs were introduced to America during the Spanish
Conquests, and settlement of La Florida (South USA) and used like John Bull's
Pit Bulldog - to control Natives/Slaves like

cattle....
             
"It has already been stated that in the New World the Spaniards have a
number of wild and ferocious dogs which they have trained especially to kill
people and to tear them to bits. It is not difficult to discover who are the
real Christians and who are not when one learns that, to feed these dogs, they
ensure that whenever they travel they always have a ready supply of natives,  chained and herded like so many calves on the hoof. These they kill and butcher
as the need arises."
A Short Account of the Destruction of the Indies,  Bartolome de las Casas, 1542

                         
(Drawings of Ponce de Leon's War Dog)


Plainly, these Spanish War Dogs were Butcher's Dogs, and, one should take note they were used to "...kill people and tear them to bits." In fact, during the Spanish Conquests and early settlement of America, Butcher's Dogs were common all over Europe....(and imported by Spain as well as by various other settlers, from various parts of Europe)....South USA was a "Melting Pot," before this term was invented...
             
"During the European Renaissance, the Great Butcher Dog was common. This more placid mastiff helped drive cattle to market, guarding the livestock as well as the owners, and often carrying the sales money home around his neck!"
The Atlas of Dog Breeds of the World

These Butcher's Dogs came in various sizes and types - the larger size is often referred to as Shepherd's Mastiffs. The Mastiff Proper aka Shepherd's Mastiff is a herding/guarding dog of the herds and herdsmen (The Alans were Herdsmen/Warriors) that does not give chase. The Mastiff stood by its Master's side in battle to defend. To make these Butcher's Dogs more aggressive (as well as swifter in the chase), Spain cross bred the smaller and swifter Alano with the Lebrel (Irish Greyhound) which was used to chase down, attack, and kill
  Natives/Slaves like wolves. In turn, the Irish Greyhound/Stag Hound became the Irish Wolfhound....
             
"From the medieval chores of battle, guarding, and hunting boar, stag and the long extinct Irish elk, the Wolfhound gradually turned to the specialized hunting of wolves by the 15th and 16th century. It was during this time that they became more consistant in type and more like the Wolfhound of today."
The Atlas of Dog Breeds of the World

The larger Mastiff type (Spanish and English crosses) were known as the Spanish Bulldogs.....
             
"The Corsican and Spanish bulldogs closely resemble the English breed, but are larger. A Spanish bulldog, which we had very recently an opportunity of examining, was certainly the most powerfully formed dog we have ever seen. In statue It was between the English bulldog and mastiff, but more massive build, with thick muscular limbs, tremendous breadth of chest, and an awful head. It  was very gentle, excepting when urged to make an attack, when its ferocity knew  no bounds."
The History of the Dog by  WCL Martin, 1845


These were imported mainly by way of Cuba, who supplied the forts and settlements of Spanish Florida (South USA)....
             
"Col. H. Smith in Naturalists Library, states that he was informed in the West Indies by some cattle dealers, who cultivated the breed, that the Cuban mastiff was introduced from England about 1560, and that they were first kept at a monastry in the ancient capital of St. Jago, acording to accounts recieved from a priest by the cattle dealers who informed Col. H. Smith."
The History of the Mastiff,  Wynn, 1886

The Spanish Cracker Cattlemen (known for the sound of "Cracking" their bull whips) were decendants of the Spanish Military Men who intermarried with Natives/Slaves and were not allowed to serve the Spanish Military (The white English speaking folks adopted the name Cracker as well as the lg white Spanish Dogs - they  called White English). The Spanish Crackers made their living by Free Ranging lg herds of cattle - which were sold to the Spanish forts of Spanish America and to Cuba. Likewise, their dogs were also a product of crosses of various imports, which developed into generic types of Bulldog and Cur Dogs of South USA. These larger white dogs were intercrossed with the Spanish (and English)  Mastiffs - also used as flock guards of cattle and sheep....
             
"He recognized them as the mountain mastiff brought from Spain, primarily by the priests, at the time of the Conquests and said they would as easily attack and kill wolves, bears, and marauding dogs - then, as now,  the most prolific killers of sheep. If a sheep strayed, the dog would gently take it by the ear and lead it back to the flock."
   A Dog's History of America, Mark Derr

The development of the English Bulldog also included the German Bullen Biesser aka Bull Biter. (This can be seen in Rosa who sports a turned-up nose like a Boxer). The Boxer, in turn, was developed from crosses with the English Bulldog. This trait may have served its purpose in Bull Baits of Germany and England, however, in actual combat - the Turned-up Nose does not serve well. (As pointed out by
Louis Colby, John Bull's Pit Bulldog has "...a normal muzzle.") In American Bulldogs, starting with JDJ's DTB, we see the Turned-up Nose, however, in the real Old Farm Bulldogs - used to kill preditor - this trait is of no use....
             
"Instead these dogs are used in the South, where breeders see a need for a powerful, aggressive dog to aid in the slaughter of packs of wild dogs."
The World of Fighting Dogs, Semencic, 1984

Latching in hold on one dog leaves it open to attack by the pack, and this is what made the American Bulldog different from the APBT, this derives from the Spanish War Dogs used ....to kill people and tear them to bits."....(Natives/Slaves were hunted down and killed like wolves).....
             
"The dog's job is even more difficult than it sounds, as it has to contend with not only the leader of the wild dog pack but also the remainder of the pack, which normally jumps to the defence of the leader."
The World of Fighting Dogs, Semencic, 1984

This ability to kill has a limited comercial use - it is unsuitable for PP/SCH and to hunt wild boar as a Catch Dog....
             
"One must tone down the aggressiveness of a fighting dog in order to use it effectively as a hunting dog."
The World of Fighting Dogs, Semencic, 1984

It is important to understand the Mastiff Proper, and its use to Herd/Guard Cattle. It is said they decend from the Alaunt/Alano, named after the Alans who settled mainly in France and Spain - who in turn - settled in Spanish Florida and French Loisianna.....
             
"Dogues have had wide and varied employment since their entrance into France after the fall of Rome. Originally, they served a dual purpose as war dogs and by guarding flocks from wolves and  bears."
The Atlas of Dog Breeds of the World

The Alans started from the Caucasus, and most likely intercrossed their COs with the Assyrian Mastiffs and various other dogs as they migrated. Thus, the Alaunt was never a breed. Driven by the Huns, a few Alans settled back in the Caucasus, in Georgia, and are known today - as the Ossations. Logically, their Alaunts were  reobsourbed into the CO of that area. Old White English of South USA - resemble
  a smaller CO of Georgia. In contrast, the Kuvasz is believed to decend from the War Dogs of the Huns....
             
"According to von Stephanitz, the great German authority on all Central European breeds, the Kuvasz is related to the Komondor, which had been brought from the Russian steppes by the Huns."
AKC (American Kennel Club)

Since we know the Kuvasz is a guardian of cattle, we have no reason to think the Alaunt was any different, and one must realize that such Guard Dogs willing to combat wild beast, are also useful when hunting wild boar - because wild boar turn to fight....
             
"In the fifteenth century, during the time of King Matthias I, the dogs were used to hunt wild boar....Hunting, however, was never this Hungarian working dog's primary funtion. In Hungary, the Kuvasz is the foremost guardian of the flocks. Its size and strength, which were advantages in its boar-battling days, were equally applicable to its role as flock guardian."
Canine Lexicon

Thus, ancient referance to hunting wild boar - does not prove Mastiffs were Catch/Holding Dogs, like the Celtic War Dogs. OWE can be used to fight wild boar, and they are used to drive them off farms, however, OWE are not Catch/Holding Dogs - they are Herding/Fighting Dogs....

   
  "There they served as  guards for the farm, and were used in gathering cattle and hogs, which ranged in the woods in a semi-wild state. These dogs were known at that time as "White English," in reference to their origin."
Billy Hines

Billy Hines was famous for using White English as an outcross to his Scott type American Bulldogs - a Carr White English is featured on his video. (Some American Bulldogs bred by Billy Hines still produce throw backs of the Carr White English type). (Again, the Celtic War Dogs took horse by the nose in battle - which gave rise to the Irish Greyhound/Stag Hound, which were crossed with the Alaunts to create "Prey type" War Dogs - those with more Greyhound type - were the actual Catch or Pinning Dogs). APBT are more Greyhound in type, and
pound for pound - make the best Catch Dogs. (Most of the Colby Bulldogs originated from Ireland). The Alans were Herdsmen/Warriors, and so their Alaunts were Herding/Fighting Dogs - and this is what we call Old White English. While developed mainly by Spain in South USA, from various imports - the Alaunt was never a pure breed - rather it is a "Working Dog," used to Herd/Fight....
             
"We recognize, however, in the light of genetics, how much more a mongrelized race, such as our own, is prone to such 'filial regression' than is an intensely inbred race like our purebred races of dogs."
The New Art of Breeding Better Dogs, Onstott, 1977

The OWE were and still are commonly given as gifts to family and friends - which was the way Old Family Lines like the Carr White English existed. Thus, pure strains, like Carr, are very limited gene pools. In the following photo, we see an OWE from the turn of the century - before the APBT was created in 1898...(This photo is from Hawkinsville Georgia, from one of the families that traded pups with the Carr Family)....
             
"For many years, the term 'pit bull' was given to any dog of the fighting pits. The United Kennel Club originally registered these breeds of dogs and, at one time, regulated dog-fighting."
The Atlas of Dog Breeds of the World
Статья о питбульдогах

Отредактировано jh76 (13 December 2014 21:09:09)